Monday, October 07, 2013

SEALs get pushed back into the sea by primitives.

Thanks for the article NICO!


via NBC News.
The SEALs opted to withdraw.
U.S. military sources said they did so in stages, making their way down the beach, asking and waiting for further orders. The team, sources said, was still considering the option of returning to fight some more.
As air support was called in, the SEALs headed back to the beach and to their boat. A command decision had been made that the prize was not worth the risk of casualties to civilians and SEALs.
The SEALs escaped from Barawe without any deaths or injuries, according to sources and officials. And the target they sought to capture is still at large.
The SEALs were members of the same unit that raided Osama bin Laden’s compound in 2011, killing the al Qaeda leader.
“After the past few years and the bin Laden raid, everyone thinks these operations are easy – they’re not,” said a senior military official familiar with the operation. “The area doesn’t have the same support network for us as Afghanistan and Iraq.”
No racial or ethnic biased is intended in the title.  I simply state the obvious in terms of military power.

The SEALs were facing a primitive force and were repelled.  

They lost.

General Vaughn's warning is staring McRaven in the face and we have gotten no response from the Top Bullfrog.

What does this tell us about SOCOM?  What does it say about operations in the future?

I think it means that the entire dept is headed toward Ranger type operations.  No more platoon sized raids.  We're looking at Company or larger.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the number of SEAL Teams contract with each Team getting MUCH larger.

In other words we're going to see SOCOM looking more and more like a Marine Corps Infantry Battalion..additionally someone is going to have to take a serious look at the tooth-to-tail ratio of SOCOM.  

26 comments :

  1. What surprised me is how the SEALs got spotted so fast and then the spotter played it cool. Like the guy wasn't surprise to see SEALs at his doorstep....Not bad for a poorly trained and primitively equipped native...also is it SOP for SEALs to have air support?

    It is almost wrong to send in SEALs when you think how fast the locals reacted and got such superior numbers that fast, almost criminal... this sounds to me like this could have been another Black Hawk down.

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  2. The SEALs claim that they weren't forced out, they decided to leave b/c they couldn't capture the target alive.

    (CNN) -- U.S. Navy SEAL Team Six pulled out during a raid in Somalia to capture suspected Al-Shabaab leader Ikrima when it became clear that he couldn't be taken alive, a senior U.S. official told CNN. "Their mission was to capture him. Once it became clear we were not going to (be) able to take him, the Navy commander made the decision to withdraw," said the official, who has direct knowledge of the entire Somalia operation but declined to be identified publicly.//

    I don't follow these events too closely, but this capturing mission is somewhat new in military annals, isn't it? And is it a practical mission, no matter the size of the force? The OBL mission (allegedly) was a kill mission, after all. They couldn't do it with a drone, I guess. So it's a progression from capture/torture to drone/kill back to capture/torture again?

    It seems like they're waist deep in the big swampy.

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    1. uhhhh not buying it. when you're calling in air support, having to withdraw under fire and you're facing large numbers of bad guys where they aren't suppose to be according to your intel then you're not making decisions anymore...you're reacting to enemy action. if the reaction to the enemy action is to order a retreat so be it but those guys were drinking the SEALs milkshake.

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    2. Someone in the Chain of Command, civil, political or military squealed the raid to the Somali's....just to be fair so no disproportionate force will be used and the SEALS don't have overwhelming superiority over the Primitives. call it the everybody plays on level ground tactics.
      The Obama administration has been reactive instead of proactive since it's beginnings.
      the foe telegraphs their punch and the administration stands there and gets punched, then goes into a fetal crouch and runs away.
      The proactive is telegraphing a US punch yet then hesitates, mills about, bumps into each other and gobbles before falling into a fetal crouch and runs away.
      Every news Cycle is a new emergency, new outrage, new ass kicking forgotten like Bengahzi.
      We have seen the shutdown go the same way, now it's not the shutdown crisis it's the debt ceiling crisis, soon to go away for yet another the default crisis where Social Security checks do not get sent, then the administration will get to use all those .40 S&W and 5.56 x 45 mm they have stockpiled.
      BUT, I bet the admin goes into a fetal crouch and runs away.
      The stupid phucs in charge are after all...stupid phucs.

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  3. All it takes is for air support failing to show up on time and natives would skin the guys alive people watch to many movies and forget that specops team can hope for fire superiority for couple of seconds maybe minutes at best but the flip flop bunch on the picture packs way more firepower than a typical seal team

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    1. yes, and then the support elements get to take crap about not being in a real war or their being Fobbits and REMFS so not real soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines, and deserve no gongs or ribbons of color.
      The old saying, "OK grunt/SF do it without air, arty, or support next time you go play."
      Why should the REMFs support the Glory guys for nothing but a shit sandwich after the shootings over?
      Because it's their job, sailing circles in the Ocean waiting for that call, sitting in an arty battery awaiting that gun mission.
      The SEALs are in deep kimchee now, their glory and brag have made them targets from both the enemy and the administration.
      Too bad, they were a good ass kicking bunch before Hollywood castrated them.

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  4. After the OBL raid, do any Western Special Forces units have any realistic chance of running into such lightly guarded compounds. Those days are over. The French found that out last year when their SF got zapped on a helo-raid.

    The bad guys have to keep things on the down low. IF they show that they are in a well-guarded compound, it becomes Drone-bait. If they show that they are lightly or unguarded, then they are bait for raids.

    The only option is to have a layered defense that doesn't tip off their enemy, lockdown quickly, and respond with enough force that is kept out of sight until the alarm is sounded.

    One could even lay a trap for Special Forces raids. Lot's of well-camouflaged HMGs, Technicals, strong points, firing loops. You could have an entire village of trained militia who are going about their daily lives until an alarm is sounded and then they all grab an AK and head-off to their hidden fighting positions.

    Dig enough tunnels and you wouldn't be able to know where the militia might pop-out or outflank a raiding force. Try to exfil past a building that was cleared only to find out the bad guys have it re-occupied from a hidden tunnel. Once again, nothing new or innovative, but the enemy has a huge playbook to draw from to foil commando raids.

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    1. yeah....game planning to stop a Western Special Ops raid isn't hard to do. everyone forgets that SOCOM is practically useless against a conventional force and these guys seem to have been poorly equipped but highly motivated.

      the issue with traps being laid for SOCOM is real too. and its a worldwide thing. terrorist are going to be lining up to kill a US SOCOM operative and if they capture one alive they're going to torture him on youtube. things aren't looking good for that organization. they haven't said so but this raid was a complete failure.

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    2. Just ask the Israeli's about Ansariya. 13 dead commandos and unknown wounded.

      "hezbollah organization revealed that they knew the position of the commandos in advance thanks to the interception of video footage broadcast by Israeli spy UAVs that were hovering over the area in the days before the mission. The soldiers were killed as a result of entering an orchard booby-trapped with bombs, that exploded when they entered"

      Hmmm, intercepted drone links....why does that sound familiar.

      It's a good thing the Shia-Sunni thing is going on in Syria because it means Hezbollah isn't showing Al-Shabaab or AQIM how to organize, train, equip, etc. Now that they couldn't figure it out on their own, but Hezbollah's been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt.

      Of course, this is nothing that H. John Poole hasn't written about in his books.

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    3. "They lost." Not in my book. I don't know what kind of intelligence they had but it appears that when they got on the beach and near the target they realized there was no way to take a prisoner who was perhaps protected by 100-200 well armed terrorists. They made a tactical withdrawal suffering no casualties. That is a win as far as I am concerned. Intelligence obviously knew the location of the enemy base and, if all the higher ups wanted to do was to kill everyone, they didn't need a Seal Team. One GPS guided 2000lb bomb would have done the trick without risking any American lives. As anyone who has been in combat knows, things don't always work out the way you planned but that doesn't mean you lost. I led Marine Recon Teams in Viet Nam and we got our butts kicked once but all but one of my men made it out alive. When suddenly and unexpectedly getting surrounded by 100+ NVA guys, just getting out alive is a big win.

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    4. you're talking tactically, i'm talking strategically.

      whether its pleasant to say or not the facts remain. first, someone probably leaked info to the terrorist. second, by the actions of the sentry its almost obvious that a trap had been laid for the team. third. the SEALs had to call in air support....and i find it quite interesting that they aren't telling us the form that support took. and last this is a tremendous propaganda win for the terrorist.

      onto a new subject but i've been a bit dismayed that American tactics are being taught to everyone and their mother world wide. more ties are being sought between our military and those of others...has it not dawned on anyone that they would read our playbook and defeating our tactics would be passed along to people we might fight?

      SEAL Team 6 was forced back into the water.

      thankfully they didn't lose anyone.

      strategically. its a loss.

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    5. Agree Sol, you said it before I could write it, it almost looks like they were tipped off or they noticed a "drone" overflying them?

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    6. Primitive Somali's sent SEALs into full route dropping gear to lighten the bug out load and extracted under fire is a win only because no SEALs got KIA or captured.
      Otherwise the mission failed and is considered a loss tactically they survived realistically they got their asses handed to them with Ela'n.
      SEALs were damned lucky they got out alive.

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  5. With all due respect,Lloyd, we don't pay SEALs to draw a tie. That's like paying 20 million dollars to your franchise QB not to lose the game, you pay him to go out there, kick butt and win damn thing. Reading the comments here, it almost seems like these guys were waiting for our troops or were well aware of possibility of a strike. This means that there is the strong possibility that the bad guys have made some progress of their own on detection, intelligence gathering and exploitation of patterns of SF tactics and protection. This is supposed to be the Third World or even below that, pretty good day for them that they can repeal a SEAL unit....

    This is really bad news for special forces in general, they need that element of surprise, if not, there are toast....

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    1. They didn't need ISR -- they were told.

      news report:
      Witnesses described a firefight lasting over an hour, with helicopters called in for air support. A senior Somali government official who spoke on the condition of anonymity said, “The attack was carried out by the American forces, and the Somali government was pre-informed about the attack.”

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    2. That was a stupid call, hey, let's tell the Somalis we are on the way.....

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    3. well we can chalk this failure up as another win for the Pentagon's kinder gentler approach to warfighting. partnership missions? really? seriously? there was once a time when everyone tried to measure up to US warfighting standards...now we're lowering our standards to meet those of our allied. sharing TTPs with allies? unless we're on a mission together or they're solid like the Brits or Aussies then why?

      General Vaughn is going to live to see SEALs shot down approaching a target one day.

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    4. Practically every air raid into Hanoi and Haiphong were broadcast to the PAVN by the US government.
      Why?
      Ships from foreign nations docking in Haiphong might get bombed so were told when, where and with what was on it's way.
      Airport's with incoming civilian flights were informed of the route package and the areas in feet wet and feet dry as well as the target location so no civilian's got their airliners shot down by mistake.
      This is just the way Politician's handle their guilt.

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    5. Nico, all I am saying is this particular Seal Team didn't lose. They came, they observed and they departed because the mission was not possible. They didn't come to see how many bad guys they could kill. They did what we pay them to do. Now if there was an intelligence failure,or maybe some higher up thought a Seal Team could capture a prisoner who was being protected by a huge number of terrorists without any collateral damage, etc.,........yes, maybe someone had their head up their ass but the Team did the right thing and should be applauded. I have seen plenty of situations where the higher ups don't get it and, like Solomon say, that is more of a strategic issue. But that is beyond the concern of the Team. I give them a well done.

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    6. Lloyd: When the Redskins football team ties with the opposite team is this called a win for the redskins?
      MISSION KILL is the term used for this scenario (cluster phuc) example: US CV mission is to safeguard a vital shipping area, enemy launch attacks which while did not kill anyone or do any damage the attack put the CV out of position to do it's assigned mission, that is mission failure and a MISSION KILL.
      SEALs mission was to sneak in, capture the target and egress with target to extraction point. SEALs ratted out by our Gov or enemy gov or just some astwhole. Target alerted and SEALs get shot at until they abandon the mission and in retrograde ops (RETREAT UNDER FIRE) barely escape with lives intact.
      Mission failure, mission kill = battle/raid lost.
      Pay? The federal government is cancelling Veterans disability payments for 3.8 million veterans in November 2013
      These SEALs may not get paid.
      MISSION KILL: look it up it is considered a loss.

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    7. MISSION KILL (military, slang) An attack or damage inflicted by a weapon that does not destroy a military vehicle but results in it taking no further part in its intended mission.
      See also
      catastrophic kill
      mobility kill
      firepower kill
      >WIKITIONARY<

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  6. This is leading me back to something I've been wondering about since the UBL raid.

    1. Am I wrong in thinking Task Force Ranger from Black Hawk Down set the template for these kinds of operations (Delta doing the assault, Rangers for security)?

    2. Have SOF gotten away from that for whatever reason (stretched thin/keeping things close to the vest)?

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    1. you're bringing up a serious issue. was this a Ranger mission that was carried out by SEALs?

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    2. Hell, this was a mission for cruise missiles and drones if not BUFF's and arclights.

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  7. SOF are good but they live by stealth. Once they lost the element of surprise they could not penetrate against low-med level enemy packing small arms and maybe a few technical s packing heavy machine guns. A fighting retreat against such a force they can but penetration requires different skills, it takes numbers, and more importantly it takes enough force structure to take hits not just deal them. Putting multiple SOF groups together have failed in the past and will continue to because stealth in out is a different mindset than find contact, hold, mass up, smash, advance, smash, smash, confirm smash, find next contact.

    This is a small coastal city with only 2 roads in and maybe 10-20 blocks across at its widest point. This mission should have been given to the Marines. A forced landing of AAV's and LAV's would have landed on the beach penetrated the 5-10 blocks surrounded the compound so the SOF could do their specialty of snatch/grab then withdrew. Maybe even a helo force to block the roads. If we had done this instead of a story about how Shaab repelled the US best the story would be how the US landed penetrated killed a few hundred guards and captured or killed the HVT then withdrew with minimal to no loss.

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  8. c-low has the key.
    Rangers or Marines, some jobs are just not doable by SEALs and Green berets.
    Isolate the battlefield, find fix and destroy the defenses by ground and AAM/AAA plan on staying around 24 hours and then plaster the entrances to the arena and egress the force.
    Continuous kill boxes surround the engagement area.

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