Why did the fabulously equipped Iraqi Army lose to the ISIS thugs? Second Line of Defense blog has an idea. Check this out but read the whole thing...
Seriously?
So the reason why the Iraqi Army folded like a cheap suit is because they didn't have an air dominance enabled ground force?
BULLSHIT!
They were defending and they outnumbered their attackers!
They were better equipped and had heavy armor (M1 Tanks), heavy artillery (M198 Howitzers), armored personnel carriers (Armored Security Vehicles), and a whole slew of MRAPs and Humvees.
The problem wasn't the lack of airpower, the problem is the quality of the Iraqi fighting man. Despite our best efforts to modernize them, they are at heart a primitive society that operates best in tribal settings.
High tech fighters, bombers, transports and helicopters wouldn't have changed the outcome of the fight. We really should let this part of the world burn. Unless we decide to finally cut our losses then we will be involved in perpetual warfare, fighting for people that WILL NOT fight for themselves.
It is not about having an effective fighting force for domestic security or defense of the country.It is about an air dominance enabled ground force versus one that it is not. And when the ISIS were able to aggregate forces, the absence of an air enabled ground force, demonstrated a fundamental fact often forgotten: it is not about airpower versus boots on the ground.Really?
The point of having a military force is its ability to fight and defend the country, not simply to manage domestic affairs to the benefit of the current despot.
And no amount of COIN training or understanding of the current fad of US Army, Human Terrain Mapping will overcome that problem.
Seriously?
So the reason why the Iraqi Army folded like a cheap suit is because they didn't have an air dominance enabled ground force?
BULLSHIT!
They were defending and they outnumbered their attackers!
They were better equipped and had heavy armor (M1 Tanks), heavy artillery (M198 Howitzers), armored personnel carriers (Armored Security Vehicles), and a whole slew of MRAPs and Humvees.
The problem wasn't the lack of airpower, the problem is the quality of the Iraqi fighting man. Despite our best efforts to modernize them, they are at heart a primitive society that operates best in tribal settings.
High tech fighters, bombers, transports and helicopters wouldn't have changed the outcome of the fight. We really should let this part of the world burn. Unless we decide to finally cut our losses then we will be involved in perpetual warfare, fighting for people that WILL NOT fight for themselves.
"Because air power." annoys the heck out of me too. :)
ReplyDeletei don't understand what you're trying to say.
DeleteThat the idea air power is the panacea is flawed.
DeleteYou are are allowed to use "because" as a preposition these days on the web because the young have no concept of grammar,
http://stancarey.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/because-has-become-a-preposition-because-grammar/
I use the construction for things for which I have contempt especially if it is received wisdom.
American forces have been fortunate to have not been subject to a mass air attack, unless by accident, since the beginning days of world war two.
DeleteOnly the Navy in the Pacific saw continuous air attack.
A military that has always had air superiority becomes dependent on the air forces.
That military also becomes un aware of what air power can achieve.
They begin to let slide their air defender units.
Once hooked on the "call in an air strike" fix for every Machine gun position or sniper in a tree as opposed to digging the enemy out with Panzer's then when air power is absent they get the shit kicked out of them from ignorance on how to fight a ground forces war only.
The Iraqi's military patterned after the US forces but lacking air support that US forces possess typically got their asses handed to them.
Air Power ain't the only way to go, neither is ground forces only just as Apache Helo gunships cannot take on a fortified position alone the tanks and infantry cannot either.
That's why they use Combined arms, Air Sea Ground Arty.
Skip or lack one and the game changes.
It's not like they don't have air power. I never understood why Muslims will simply just walk off to thier deaths? I mean I see all these videos, huge amounts of Iraqi soldiers being killed by a few Isis fighters
ReplyDeletewell said. its just the quality of the fighting man when you boil it all down. a few lions massacred hundreds of sheep. quite honestly it was pathetic.
DeleteNot to disagree with you but that's hardly Muslim thing. The Chinese are infamous for this kind of fighting are they not?
DeleteWhen Iran was fighting Iraq, they dug in their tanks and fought it out in trenches like WWI. Complete with mass infantry charges into machine gun positions.
DeleteArabs in general (and politically chosen puppets in particular) have literally no idea how to properly employ modern weapons.
Isis won
ReplyDeleteClearly ISIS deployed a vast air wing :)
Thats we didnt see them only means, Oh god, ISIS have stealth fighters!
;)
If Iraq had a modern airforce, it should have been able to crush ISIS in the open,
But so should the 140 M1 Tanks it owns, but apparently is unable to operate
Or the 200 heavy artillery pieces, most of which appear to have been left for ISIS,
Or even just well led dug in infantry, who should have needed nothing more than infantry rifles, squad machine guns and platoon mortars to stonewall ISIS Technicals.
The problem is simply not one of the equipment of the Iraqi armed forces.
Sol,
ReplyDeleteYou can laugh at their posts soon. Remember Obama wants to bomb them too. So you've got air support, will the (what's left of the) Iraqi Army fight or flight?
Obama is in a hard place. If he sends boots in, he gets ridiculed. If he doesn't send boots in and ISIS goes further south, guess who's going to step in? Iran.
If Iran steps in, Obama and the rest of the US government will be the laughing stock.
Obama sending a few bombers down ISIS is like Clinton sending a volley of Tomahawk to Bin Laden. Too little. Too late.
KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) has created a monster which they themselves can't control any more.
ya know what. if the president of the united states stood up at a podium on monday and said, i fucked up, i under estimated the threat that ISIS presents and its in our national interest to at least roll back and degrade them. so i have ordered 20 B-52 bombers to fly strikes against that group with the mission of destroying every single piece of US equipment that they've seized. additionally while i hate to play air force for the syrian dictator i'm going to bomb ISIS targets in that country too....
Deletetell me who would complain? i mean some would but the american people would have a better feel for whats going on. instead he's lying, equivocating and spinning. its disgraceful!
Anyone complains, Sol. Anyone.
DeleteObama is not just a lame-duck president. He's a knee-jerk president. He doesn't think long term. I have no idea why the hesitation, he's already on his second term. He's going to get a golden parachute, 24-hour protection and G0d-knows what free perks he's going to get. He's probably worth US$150k/event speaking tour.
ISIS is not just a crazed lunatic group. You want something worst? How a regional war between the lunatic ISIS vs the equally deranged Iran. But let's push it a bit ... let's add a sprinkle of Saudi Arabia into the mix, a dash of anti-ship/anti-access missile overlooking the picturesque sea of the Straight of Hormuz ... did I forget anyone?
When I was growing up, I used to watch a documentary about Nostredamus. I used to think that Saddam Hussein was it, the third anti-Christ. Boy did I get wrong ...
Wishful thinking: Will the PotUS STFU and talk some sense and tell everyone the truth??? (I forgot that all politicians are incapable of telling the truth and talking sense.)
NOTE: Apologize for the rant.
you're just expressing the same frustration and thoughts that many have. the Saudi Arabia angle on all this is what has me wondering.
Deletethe Saudi's have a ton of great gear but a weak army and a middling (by Middle East standards) air force. they would be so easy to topple it isn't even funny.
if Saudi Arabia is threatened then you're going to see the entire western world go to war. i wonder if thats why ISIS hasn't even tried....i mean they're terrorizing Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq.
Add Turkey to that list Solomon
DeleteTurkey and the house of Saud are likely paying ISIS. That's why they haven't been attacked.
DeleteA few F-16's and F-18's is a far cry from an Alpha strike which has not been sent in yet.
Deletelet the full power of the Air Force, Naval Aviation come into play and without rules or restraint this war would be over damn dirty and quick.
Confucius say, Boxer with hands tied soon kiss mat.
If Barack stood up and with Mea Culpa's all over I'd back him more better.
DeleteIf he then ordered a full on Bombing attack until IS was dust I'd back him against all detractors.
As it is I don't agree with his politics or methods but I damn sure don't want him to fail, if he fails I fail and we fail.
I Fo' Shizzle wouldn't complain and might even name my next grandson on after him!
O/T Robin Williams had died.
that apology and admitting that he fucked up speech would have every American rallying behind him. why all those so called brains in the white house can't figure it out is beyond me.
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ReplyDeleteMy little Brother fought Gulf war 1 he worked with some guys attempting to train Muslim's the major problem was fatalistic acceptance under submission to allah.
ReplyDeleteHand the Muslim soldier AN AK 47 and tell him to aim and shoot a target and he will close his eyes and squeeze off a burst, if he hit the target it was allah's will, if he missed, allahs will.
Hand the Haji a MANPAD and teach him every aspect of engaging and shooting down a jet and then when he acquires a jet he will point the missile launcher at the sky and pull the trigger eyes closed.
If it hits the jet allahs will, if he misses the jet, allahs will, hence the allah ackhbar's after each murder, shooting, missile or beheading, no personal responsibility involved each event guided by allahs will.
Hit or miss, win or lose, submit to allahs will.
This means no matter how high tech and lethal the equipment the Muslim will simply close his eyes and send off the rounds and it's allahs will if he scores or not.
His high command keeps the average Iraqi soldier a mushroom, in the dark, stupid, and feeds them bullshit.
The High command, selected for loyalty and tribal position runs away first contact, the middle command treated like shit by the high command soon follow, the Lt's and SNCO's taught nothing but allah's will do not stick around.
The enemy, the Islamist has allah on his side, he is fighting to win his high command stays and makes sure he fights or else, allahs will, he gets executed. The Iraqi soldiers see the Islamist as warriors of allah and feafring hell and the pain of Shaytan don't fight allahs warriors.
They know they will get beheaded yet the Iraqi Army continues to surrender, allahs will.
It's their excuse for failure and success, allah.
they will never rise above this.
Zebra,
DeleteWhat you've posted above, it's not something I've heard/read for the first time (unfortunately).
Have you read of a document called "Why Arabs Lose Wars"?
Yup, read it long ago, I've heard the same said by two Nephews and a son about Arab forces.
DeleteAll served Iraq and Afghanistan, one on his first tour I asked what they called their enemies, such as the WW2 used Kraut or Nip and we used Gook and slope even Gomer.
He said we call them EPW's. then the war broke out, Crew Chief on a Phrog he saw lots of insertions.
His next tour they flew Med Evacs, I asked him again and he said, we call them Dead Haji's. Seeing dead, wounded and maimed American Marines changes the view of the enemy somewhat.
The other Nephew was a Rifleman, he called them idiots and assholes.
The son was with a helo Gunship outfit he called them stupid haji's.
Unlike Mr. Charles or Victor Charles of the Vietnam era the Arab at war is basically an idiot with a mean streak and no mercy when he is on top.
If not, he runs away.
allah's will.
I read a report about the training of ISIS, where it combines the fanatical drive of Islam with training the following way:
DeleteIf you train and become strong, you paid your respects to Allah. If you are weak, you are not worthy of his grace. If you miss a target, you honor Allah, and if you miss you are a disgrace to Allah until you hit the target. I need to find link and post here, but that's more or less what it said.
That simple difference is a landslide when it comes to the battlefield.
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ReplyDelete